The transferring of the title of Taiwan

Topics related to Taiwan and Taiwan/China issues can be discussed here. Threads dealing with Taiwan's history belong in the Culture & History thread. Please do not post articles - use links instead. Quoted sources should be limited to one paragraph in length, or less. If you see a post that you feel is against the rules, please send a report to the moderators so we can look into it

Moderator: TheGingerMan

Forum rules
Threads dealing with Taiwan's history belong in the Culture & History thread. Please do not post articles - use links instead. Quoted sources should be limited to one paragraph in length, or less. If you see a post that you feel is against the rules, you can send a report to the moderators so we can look into it

The transferring of the title of Taiwan

Postby printlessfoot » 12 Jun 2012, 23:25

It's interesting to note down the records of the transferring of the title of Taiwan.

Prehistory. The concept and the practice of the property ownership of the aborigines in Taiwan is a controversial issue.

1624. Dutch East India Company acquired title of the land surrounding Fort Zeelandia (that area was called 'dawon' by the local aborigines) via 'the right of conquest'.

1662. Lord Koxinga acquired Dutch's title of the land via 'the right of conquest'. Koxinga's family acquired more land in the west coast from the aborigines later on via 'the right of conquest'.

1683. Emperor Kangxi acquired the title of land from Konxinga's grandson, who had inherited the ownership from Konxinga, via 'the right of conquest'.

1683 - 1885. The legal descendants of Emperor Kangxi retained the title and acquired most of the west coast via 'the right conquest'. However the east coast and the central mountain area were still owned by various aboriginal tribes.

1885. Emperor Meiji acquired that title from Emperor Guangxu via 'the right of conquest'. Later Japan Empire acquired the rest of Taiwan via 'the right of conquest'.

Up to this point, the title of ownership of Taiwan has always been transferred between private hands. Notice that the concept and the reality of nation state never existed in east Asia up to this point. That implied that the concept and the reality of China as a nation state did not exist in 1885. Before 1911, all land under heaven belonged to whichever Emperor that controled China. China before 1911 was only a geographical term used by the westerners.

1783. USA as a nation state acquired the title of the 13 states from King George III via 'the right of independence'. The emperors of Spain and France acquired other small piece of lands.

From WIKI "After the attempted conquests of Napoleon and up to the attempted conquests of Hitler, the disposition of territory acquired under the principle of conquest had to, according to international law, be conducted according to the existing laws of war. This meant that there had to be military occupation followed by a peace settlement. If there was a territorial cession, then there had to be a formal peace treaty."

1948. USA as a nation state acquired the right to setttle the title of Taiwan from Emperor Hirohito via 'the right of conquest'.

1952. Treaty of San Fancisco was signed but the recipient of the title of Taiwan was not determined in the treaty.

1948 - present. USA has determined neither the recipient of the title nor the way to settle it.
Set yourself free from the worthless manner of life handed down by your ancestors.

I don't care when or from where one's ancestor arrived in Taiwan. If you were born in Taiwan or Penghu (that is Formosa or Pescadores) and are willing to pledge allegiance to the sovereignty of Taiwan, then you are a Stockholder of Taiwan Sovereignty. If you have a family or job here and are willing to pledge allegiance to the sovereignty of Taiwan, then you are a Stakeholder of Taiwan Sovereignty.
User avatar
printlessfoot
High School Triad Member (gāozhōng liúmáng)
High School Triad Member (gāozhōng liúmáng)
 
Posts: 502
{ AUTHOR_TOPIC }
Joined: 18 Jul 2006, 15:58
Location: Taiwan



Re: The transferring of the title of Taiwan

Postby Hartzell » 13 Jun 2012, 11:48

In the aftermath of WWII, and with regard to the provisions of the San Francisco Peace Treaty, it is clear that the "title" to Taiwan territory has not been transferred to any particular state party, . . . . . hence it is still held in trust by the principal occupying power as an interim status condition.

Such an analysis flows directly from relevant US Supreme Court decisions. See --
Fiduciary Relationships: Sovereignty Held in Trust
http://www.taiwanbasic.com/ebooks/trelation/chapter-12/

Looking at the last four hundred years of Taiwan history, it quickly becomes clear that all changes of sovereignty have been based on the principle of conquest. See --
On the Subjects of "Conquest" and "Dominion"
http://www.taiwanbasic.com/key/dc/conqudm6.htm

This recent letter in the TAIPEI TIMES is also of interest in discussing this topic.
Taiwan is occupied territory
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editori ... 2003534301
The following URL reference is included in that letter.
http://www.taiwanadvice.com/examlegalit.htm
Richard W. Hartzell
contact me by email at rwh.midway@gmail.com
Neihu District, Taipei (114)
User avatar
Hartzell
Mando-pop Singer (Guóyǔ liúxíng gēshǒu)
Mando-pop Singer (Guóyǔ liúxíng gēshǒu)
 
Posts: 2348
Joined: 31 Oct 2000, 17:01
Location: Nei Hu District, Taipei, Taiwan



Re: The transferring of the title of Taiwan

Postby printlessfoot » 13 Jun 2012, 17:32

Hi Richard,
Thanks for providing those documents in your website that clarify the status quo of Taiwan as an ocupied territory of USA. Now according to the law of war the USA has an obligation to determine the recipient of the title to Taiwan territory. The requirement for the occupying force by the law of war to maintina a period of peaceful settlement has been met. USA government can no longer postpone their decision. It is even worse to intentionally skip any public discussion on the issue of Taiwan status. USA government has for years kept saying they don't support Taiwan independence. Ok then what exactly will USA government support about Taiwan's future status?

This is a short list of candidates which are interested to receive the title to Taiwan territory:
1. Emperor of Japan, 2. government of Republic of China, 3. USA government, 4. government of People's Republic of China, 5. government of new Independent Taiwanese nation (if there will be such one in the future), 6. Taiwan civil government.

And there are several ways that USA can determine the recipient:
1. putting the title for an open bidding in an intrernational market.
2. being determined by the original inhibitants of Taiwan via pubic referendum.
3. trading it with ROC in exchange of something from her.
4. trading it with PROC in exchange of something from her.
5. trading it with the Empror of Japan in exchange of something from him.
6. possessing it by USA herself.
7. or any other outside-box way.

Or more practically what function would the USA want to see Taiwan territory serve in 2049?
1. a strong naval post in the AirSea Battle stragegy.
2. a light house of democracy to guide Chinese people.
3. a node in global supply/manufacturing chain
4. a present and a token of kindness to PROC from generous American citenzens.
5. a migraine that constantly bothers PROC.
6. a migraine that constantly bothers the whole world.

It seems that at this moment the USA government does not know what it wants from/for Taiwan. And this causes it to blame Taiwanese people either when they don't know what they want or when they say what they exactly want. It seems that PROC is the only one that knows what they want. I don't know if President Ma knows what he wants and even if he knows what he wants, he would not let me or anyone else to know what he wants. Ma is like a quantum riddle. The moment we know what he wants, he changes what he wants.

:doh:
Set yourself free from the worthless manner of life handed down by your ancestors.

I don't care when or from where one's ancestor arrived in Taiwan. If you were born in Taiwan or Penghu (that is Formosa or Pescadores) and are willing to pledge allegiance to the sovereignty of Taiwan, then you are a Stockholder of Taiwan Sovereignty. If you have a family or job here and are willing to pledge allegiance to the sovereignty of Taiwan, then you are a Stakeholder of Taiwan Sovereignty.
User avatar
printlessfoot
High School Triad Member (gāozhōng liúmáng)
High School Triad Member (gāozhōng liúmáng)
 
Posts: 502
{ AUTHOR_TOPIC }
Joined: 18 Jul 2006, 15:58
Location: Taiwan



Re: The transferring of the title of Taiwan

Postby urodacus » 13 Jun 2012, 22:47

Number 6 please.
The prizes are a bottle of f*!@#$% SCOTCH and a box of cheap f!@#$#$ CIGARS!

Too many people! Almost all of the world's problems are due to overpopulation. The rest are due to religion.

50% of the world's wild animals have disappeared in the last 50 years. Did you eat them, or eat their house?
User avatar
urodacus
Maitreya Buddha (Mílèfó)
 
Posts: 11859
Joined: 04 Nov 2004, 23:20
Location: picking flowers



Re: The transferring of the title of Taiwan

Postby Hartzell » 13 Jun 2012, 23:48

printlessfoot wrote:Hi Richard,
Thanks for providing those documents in your website that clarify the status quo of Taiwan as an ocupied territory of USA. Now according to the law of war the USA has an obligation to determine the recipient of the title to Taiwan territory. The requirement for the occupying force by the law of war to maintain a period of peaceful settlement has been met. USA government can no longer postpone their decision. It is even worse to intentionally skip any public discussion on the issue of Taiwan status. USA government has for years kept saying they don't support Taiwan independence. Ok then what exactly will USA government support about Taiwan's future status?

According to what I hear, the USA is happy to have Taiwan remain in interim status under the law of occupation. (The "one year" stipulation in Article 6 of the GC has never been applied to territorial cessions . . . . . . to my knowledge.)

You will recall that in Roger Lin v. USA, the judges found that native Taiwanese persons are essentially stateless. See -- http://www.taiwanbasic.com/court.htm

In conformance with this line of thinking, we are pressing the DOD to authorize the issuance of some form of "Travel Document" to native Taiwanese persons. (Those ROC exiles who came to Taiwan in the late 1940s and early 1950s, and their descendants, will continue to use ROC passports.) In this way, native Taiwanese persons will obtain visa free travel to the USA.
Richard W. Hartzell
contact me by email at rwh.midway@gmail.com
Neihu District, Taipei (114)
User avatar
Hartzell
Mando-pop Singer (Guóyǔ liúxíng gēshǒu)
Mando-pop Singer (Guóyǔ liúxíng gēshǒu)
 
Posts: 2348
Joined: 31 Oct 2000, 17:01
Location: Nei Hu District, Taipei, Taiwan



Re: The transferring of the title of Taiwan

Postby printlessfoot » 14 Jun 2012, 17:00

Hartzell wrote:In conformance with this line of thinking, we are pressing the DOD to authorize the issuance of some form of "Travel Document" to native Taiwanese persons. (Those ROC exiles who came to Taiwan in the late 1940s and early 1950s, and their descendants, will continue to use ROC passports.) In this way, native Taiwanese persons will obtain visa free travel to the USA.

I believe your team and you are doling the best and I am grateful for that. But what is the action you guys have taken to press the DOD? And how far are you away from the goal?
Set yourself free from the worthless manner of life handed down by your ancestors.

I don't care when or from where one's ancestor arrived in Taiwan. If you were born in Taiwan or Penghu (that is Formosa or Pescadores) and are willing to pledge allegiance to the sovereignty of Taiwan, then you are a Stockholder of Taiwan Sovereignty. If you have a family or job here and are willing to pledge allegiance to the sovereignty of Taiwan, then you are a Stakeholder of Taiwan Sovereignty.
User avatar
printlessfoot
High School Triad Member (gāozhōng liúmáng)
High School Triad Member (gāozhōng liúmáng)
 
Posts: 502
{ AUTHOR_TOPIC }
Joined: 18 Jul 2006, 15:58
Location: Taiwan



Re: The transferring of the title of Taiwan

Postby fanglangzhe » 15 Jun 2012, 13:59

Good luck with your application to the DOD. The chances of that happening are lower than pigs growing wings and flying. Btw, ROC passport holders are months away from getting visa free access to the USA anyway. Doesn't that defeat your aim?
fanglangzhe
Shoe-wielding Legislator (huīwǔ xiézi de lìfǎ wěiyuán)
Shoe-wielding Legislator (huīwǔ xiézi de lìfǎ wěiyuán)
 
Posts: 218
Joined: 25 Sep 2004, 15:09



Re: The transferring of the title of Taiwan

Postby raymondaliasapollyon » 15 Jun 2012, 22:35

All this talk about getting the US to grant the native Taiwanese some sort of protection and privilege due to the presumed sovereginty of the US over Taiwan is pointless.
The court simply rejected the Roger Lin case as falling outside the jurisdiction of the US judiciary. In other words, it was rejected based on the 'political question doctrine'.
raymondaliasapollyon
Breakfast Store Laoban (zǎocān diàn lǎobǎn)
Breakfast Store Laoban (zǎocān diàn lǎobǎn)
 
Posts: 147
Joined: 28 May 2012, 06:25



Re: The transferring of the title of Taiwan

Postby fanglangzhe » 16 Jun 2012, 15:04

raymondaliasapollyon wrote:All this talk about getting the US to grant the native Taiwanese some sort of protection and privilege due to the presumed sovereginty of the US over Taiwan is pointless.


Totally agree, this effort is just insane. Unless if its all a big joke.
fanglangzhe
Shoe-wielding Legislator (huīwǔ xiézi de lìfǎ wěiyuán)
Shoe-wielding Legislator (huīwǔ xiézi de lìfǎ wěiyuán)
 
Posts: 218
Joined: 25 Sep 2004, 15:09



Re: The transferring of the title of Taiwan

Postby TheGingerMan » 16 Jun 2012, 21:20

I think they should just give it all to me.
I'd be a benevolent dictator, I promise!
:p
"Turne ye to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope,
even to day do I declare that I will render double unto thee:"

~~~ZECHARIAH 9:12

"Or fill high hawkfell of my hand,
with skalds reward for skilled word?"

~~~Egill Skallagrimssøn, c.974


"It shall rain for forty days and forty nights, until your vile odour is cleansed."
~~~jimipresley
User avatar
TheGingerMan
Bureaucrat of the Underworld (cóng dìyù lái de guānliáo)
Bureaucrat of the Underworld (cóng dìyù lái de guānliáo)
 
Posts: 7944
Joined: 29 Aug 2005, 00:38
Location: The Thin Edge Of The Wedge
In Taiwan since: 0- 0-2114
Gruntleness: Fully Disgruntled



FRIENDLY REMINDER
   Please remember that Forumosa is not responsible for the content that appears on the other side of links that Forumosans post on our forums. As a discussion website, we encourage open and frank debate. We have learned that the most effective way to address questionable claims or accusations on Forumosa is by engaging in a sincere and constructive conversation. To make this website work, we must all feel safe in expressing our opinions, this also means backing up any claims with hard facts, including links to other websites.
   Please also remember that one should not believe everything one reads on the Internet, particularly from websites whose content cannot be easily verified or substantiated. Use your common sense and do not hesitate to ask for proof.
Next




Return to Taiwan Politics



Who is online

Forumosans browsing this forum: schwarzwald and 3 guests