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A Charter of the People of Taiwan

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Re: A Charter of the People of Taiwan

Postby Hokwongwei » 30 Jun 2014, 14:20

Fact: Nearly everyone in Taiwan speaks Mandarin natively or near-natively.

Fact: Few people in Taiwan speak English natively.

Since it's a charter of the people of Taiwan, isn't getting a bunch of foreigners to help write it in English kind of... you know... not representative of the people of Taiwan?
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Re: A Charter of the People of Taiwan

Postby hansioux » 30 Jun 2014, 16:17

I don't use facebook, so I'll give my opinion here.

Whereas such inhabitants have through generations already united as one distinct people and established one permanent and uniform country over the entirety of the Islands of Formosa and Pescadores,

[ARTICLES]
ARTICLE 1.The Islands of Formosa and Pescadores constitute Taiwan, of which we are the free people, and the right, title and claim of which we assert exclusively and naturally


If the charter is to outlast governments, then I wish territory isn't specified in the charter. There's no mention of the 13 colonies or what people should constitute the people of the new United States in the US bill of rights.

I don't really mind which language you choose to draft it in.
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Re: A Charter of the People of Taiwan

Postby Ermintrude » 30 Jun 2014, 16:28

I'd change the wording in English to take into account that not all Taiwanese are 'indigenous', 'inheritors' and have not 'inhabited Taiwan for generations'. American, Vietnamese, South-African born Taiwanese nationals have a stake too and the doc should be more inclusive in tone. Taiwan needs to recognise its immigrants, many of whom are mothers or have served in the army as conscripts, more.
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Re: A Charter of the People of Taiwan

Postby Hokwongwei » 30 Jun 2014, 17:32

"ARTICLE 2. Taiwan shall never again be made a part of another country, nation, or state, that is not of Taiwan’s own origin, whether by means of treaties, agreements, conquest, coersion, or occupation."

What if the people wanted to be part of another country, nation, or state? There are a good deal of whackos out there who varyingly say Taiwan is part of China, the US, and Japan.
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Re: A Charter of the People of Taiwan

Postby sofun » 01 Jul 2014, 02:11

hansioux wrote:I don't use facebook, so I'll give my opinion here.

Whereas such inhabitants have through generations already united as one distinct people and established one permanent and uniform country over the entirety of the Islands of Formosa and Pescadores,

[ARTICLES]
ARTICLE 1.The Islands of Formosa and Pescadores constitute Taiwan, of which we are the free people, and the right, title and claim of which we assert exclusively and naturally


If the charter is to outlast governments, then I wish territory isn't specified in the charter. There's no mention of the 13 colonies or what people should constitute the people of the new United States in the US bill of rights.

I don't really mind which language you choose to draft it in.


The rationale for territory specification is the following:

Within the specific territory boundary of "V", that is to say, at least within the physical space of "V", the rights and freedom of the people of V is guaranteed and protected.
Similarly, if within the specific geographical boundary of U, the people of "U" want similar protection, they will have to come up with an equivalent charter.
And similarly for "W."

Failure to at least specify "V" will result in none of the peoples in "V", "U" and "W" and so on getting protected. Nobody will move to do any and say anything at all.

Regarding the 13 colonies, I think that scenario is in itself a unique case, and is irrelevant to Taiwan.

But thank you for your input. I'd invite you to revise the charter too and see if omission of territory works well.
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Re: A Charter of the People of Taiwan

Postby sofun » 01 Jul 2014, 02:30

Ermintrude wrote:I'd change the wording in English to take into account that not all Taiwanese are 'indigenous', 'inheritors' and have not 'inhabited Taiwan for generations'. American, Vietnamese, South-African born Taiwanese nationals have a stake too and the doc should be more inclusive in tone. Taiwan needs to recognise its immigrants, many of whom are mothers or have served in the army as conscripts, more.


Thank you for participation. I encourage you revise or modify it. It'll be a good process for everyone.

Rationale:
1. Surely, currently in 2014, not all Taiwanese are indigenous, but in 3 generations they will be as indigenous as anybody else.
2. Currently in 2014, immigrants are more global, and some of them may come and go freely. Those who become non-Taiwnaese need not be concerned with this charter either, since they will have assumed another nationality anyway.
3. The preamble is to explain the rationale of drafting this charter, to justify a charter. At any given point in time in Taiwan's history, the well-being of the newcomer is founded upon the society already founded by the indigenous Taiwanese. Notice we're talking about something universally true across time in the context of Taiwan. Push back 501, 1001, or 5001 years, in each instance, there were already indigenous Taiwanese, who did not really go anywhere, and we're the decedents of these folks.

4. Immigrants come to Taiwan fully aware that there is already indigenous population and society (which a HUGE plus, because the foundation of a society is already built, and the immigrants don't need to start from scratch).
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Re: A Charter of the People of Taiwan

Postby sofun » 01 Jul 2014, 02:39

Hokwongwei wrote:"ARTICLE 2. Taiwan shall never again be made a part of another country, nation, or state, that is not of Taiwan’s own origin, whether by means of treaties, agreements, conquest, coersion, or occupation."

What if the people wanted to be part of another country, nation, or state? There are a good deal of whackos out there who varyingly say Taiwan is part of China, the US, and Japan.


The short answer is: Then those people you speak of will certainly not sign the charter.

The long answer is: This concern is irrelevant because, the purpose and design of the Charter is not to invalidate itself (that'd be stupid!).
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Re: A Charter of the People of Taiwan

Postby sofun » 01 Jul 2014, 02:49

Hokwongwei wrote:Fact: Nearly everyone in Taiwan speaks Mandarin natively or near-natively.

Fact: Few people in Taiwan speak English natively.

Since it's a charter of the people of Taiwan, isn't getting a bunch of foreigners to help write it in English kind of... you know... not representative of the people of Taiwan?


Rationale 1: Some foreigners are friends of Taiwan. Some of them might even make a baby with a Taiwanese person this friday night. You never know.
Rationale 2: Only the content and the benefits of the proposed Charter matter.
So I'd say don't worry about Mandarin for now.
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Re: A Charter of the People of Taiwan

Postby sofun » 01 Jul 2014, 04:16

Newly inserted as ARTICLE 3.:

ARTICLE 3. This present Charter is the supreme law of Taiwan, and any law or agreement that is inconsistent with the provisions of the Charter is of no force or effect, and any government, regime, administration, authority, and state that enacts such a law or enters into such an agreement, whether coming into force or not, is deemed illegitimate and shall be derecognized, disarmed, and dissolved immediately by the People of Taiwan.

ARTICLE "E" Pursuant to ARTICLE 3, safe passage to airports shall be negotiated by the representatives ...

Newly revised last paragraph of the preamble:

We the People of Taiwan, by the principles of democracy and the rule of law, hereby enter into a covenant to proclaim jointly as the supreme statue of Fomosa and Pescadores, this Charter to be enacted and entrenched in perpetuity, in order to uphold and safegaurd our natural and inherent right to autonomously govern these Islands and Ourselves, against subjugation to and persecution by any state, regime, authority, power, or administration.

Newly revised Article 2. Built-in to prevent genocide by migration (both planned mass immigration and planned emigration, in light of historical precedents)
whether by means of treaties, agreements, conquest, coersion, occupation, or mass migration
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Re: A Charter of the People of Taiwan

Postby Ermintrude » 01 Jul 2014, 09:15

sofun wrote:
Ermintrude wrote:I'd change the wording in English to take into account that not all Taiwanese are 'indigenous', 'inheritors' and have not 'inhabited Taiwan for generations'. American, Vietnamese, South-African born Taiwanese nationals have a stake too and the doc should be more inclusive in tone. Taiwan needs to recognise its immigrants, many of whom are mothers or have served in the army as conscripts, more.


Thank you for participation. I encourage you revise or modify it. It'll be a good process for everyone.

Rationale:
1. Surely, currently in 2014, not all Taiwanese are indigenous, but in 3 generations they will be as indigenous as anybody else.
2. Currently in 2014, immigrants are more global, and some of them may come and go freely. Those who become non-Taiwnaese need not be concerned with this charter either, since they will have assumed another nationality anyway.
3. The preamble is to explain the rationale of drafting this charter, to justify a charter. At any given point in time in Taiwan's history, the well-being of the newcomer is founded upon the society already founded by the indigenous Taiwanese. Notice we're talking about something universally true across time in the context of Taiwan. Push back 501, 1001, or 5001 years, in each instance, there were already indigenous Taiwanese, who did not really go anywhere, and we're the decedents of these folks.

4. Immigrants come to Taiwan fully aware that there is already indigenous population and society (which a HUGE plus, because the foundation of a society is already built, and the immigrants don't need to start from scratch).


Hi, sorry, I recommended it by accident because the button is next to the 'Quote' button, on my phone.

sofun, these are hopelessly anachronistic viewpoints. It's an ethnocentric world view that Taiwanese people are not subject to when they emigrate and an offshoot of that kind of 'special snowflake' Han chauvinism that Taiwan needs to avoid in order to be perceived as a modern country and to not just sound like China.
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