Click here to go to our new forums at http://tw.forumosa.com
If you are a Forumosan Regular, when you log in for the FIRST TIME, you must RESET your password by using the Password Recovery system.

Usernames on the new forums must not contain any SPACES and must end with LETTER or a NUMBER; if yours does, you will be prompted to change your Username
Contact us at admin(at)forumosa(dot)com or @forumosa on Twitter or on our Facebook Page if you have any questions or problems logging back in

A Charter of the People of Taiwan

Forum rules
While the moderators are happy to help point people in the right direction for legal assistance and to attempt to keep these forums civil and tidy, please bear in mind that an Internet forum is not the place for providing or receiving legal advice or for the creation of any attorney-client privileges or obligations. Also keep in mind that Forumosa and the moderators cannot conduct comprehensive reviews of all laws or legal concepts referenced or discussed within these forums – laws and regulations are updated and amended, interpretations do change, and sometimes the legal landscape can change very fast. Forumosa provides these legal forums for general informational purposes only. By using these legal forums, you agree that the information does not constitute legal or other professional advice and no attorney-client or other relationship is created between you and any other posters on these forums. DO NOT CONSIDER THE FORUMS TO BE A SUBSTITUTE FOR OBTAINING LEGAL ADVICE FROM A QUALIFIED LICENSED ATTORNEY.

Re: A Charter of the People of Taiwan

Postby sofun » 01 Jul 2014, 10:12

Ermintrude, Thank you for your response. The scope of this charter is limited to Taiwan only and precisely.

If a person is born in Taiwan, but neither parent is a Taiwanese, then this person is excluded from signing this proposed Charter. You're correct to say so.

This is NOT the UN Charter of human rights and freedom. (It concerns human rights but is NOT JUST ABOUT such things. The moderator moved my OP from Taiwan Politics sub-forum to this sub-forum, which I think is okay for now. But this charter is not about reinventing the wheel of UN Charters)

Incidentally Taiwan is not a part of UN, therefore this proposed charter will (and will so designed to )guarantee the same rights and freedom of say, an Vietnamese born person in Taiwan. To this end there must be a Charter like this, in Taiwan, with the People of Taiwan and its existing society providing a foundation and safety net, which has been more or less true, albeit without strong and robust legal* guarantee. I really understand your concern. However, it is not true that such Vietnamese or American born person is born in an unknown and unmanned land "X". We're not talking about 16th century settlement on virgin lands anymore. Those scenarios are gone and not applicable.

*assuming the legal status of Taiwan is currently questionable and controverisal.
sofun
Martyr's Shrine Guard (zhōngliècí wèibīng)
Martyr's Shrine Guard (zhōngliècí wèibīng)
 
Posts: 1722
{ AUTHOR_TOPIC }
Joined: 26 Jun 2014, 15:20



Re: A Charter of the People of Taiwan

Postby Ermintrude » 01 Jul 2014, 10:35

So why ask foreigners to write it, if you don't even consider all Taiwanese people covered by this? Just write what you want and get it translated.

I guess Taiwanese people see emigration as less permanent because the govern permits them to hold Taiwanese citizenship when they become economic migrants to the US and other countries. You know that the government does not allow immigrants to retain their original citizenship, so these people often have far more commitment that Taiwanese emigrants?


Do you consider the millions of Taiwanese born Americans to be exempt from constitutional protection?

Anyway, can't see you having much look crowd sourcing your translation with this nonsense in its current form. If that is your actual purpose in posting this.
'And we'll hide from the cunts, on our night reconnaissance'.
Ermintrude
Generalissimo (dàyuánshuài)
Generalissimo (dàyuánshuài)
 
Posts: 4406
Joined: 10 Jan 2013, 08:24



Re: A Charter of the People of Taiwan

Postby jesus80 » 01 Jul 2014, 10:43

So Fun, I think you wrote Fomosa instead of Formosa somewhere in your charter.

In my opinion, Taiwan is what it is. It's currently a country of fact, but it never was much of a country during the last thousand of years. But I'm not an expert in history, of course.

I liked the part where you say that many foreigners will be "making babies" with Taiwanese woman...
User avatar
jesus80
"Drinks for the House!"
 
Posts: 4125
Joined: 11 Feb 2011, 10:31



Re: A Charter of the People of Taiwan

Postby sofun » 01 Jul 2014, 11:04

Newly inserted as Article 4:

ARTICLE 4. Judicial independence and due process of trial shall be held absolute paramount in Taiwan, in order to gaurantee and protect the integrity of this Charter and the freedom and rights of all in Taiwan provisioned hereby, and as such, there shall be one judiciary formed solely by, and its power vested solely in the People of Taiwan, to interpret and apply the the present Charter.
sofun
Martyr's Shrine Guard (zhōngliècí wèibīng)
Martyr's Shrine Guard (zhōngliècí wèibīng)
 
Posts: 1722
{ AUTHOR_TOPIC }
Joined: 26 Jun 2014, 15:20



Re: A Charter of the People of Taiwan

Postby sofun » 01 Jul 2014, 11:10

jesus80 wrote:So Fun, I think you wrote Fomosa instead of Formosa somewhere in your charter.

In my opinion, Taiwan is what it is. It's currently a country of fact, but it never was much of a country during the last thousand of years. But I'm not an expert in history, of course.

I liked the part where you say that many foreigners will be "making babies" with Taiwanese woman...


Yes.

Quoting my own writing, the "already united as one distinct people and established one permanent and uniform country over the entirety of the Islands of Formosa and Pescadores," , I did not say Taiwan was a country in the year 1000AD or 1500AD. etc. I was being very careful. But by the time 2014, or 2015, this statement is already true.
sofun
Martyr's Shrine Guard (zhōngliècí wèibīng)
Martyr's Shrine Guard (zhōngliècí wèibīng)
 
Posts: 1722
{ AUTHOR_TOPIC }
Joined: 26 Jun 2014, 15:20



Re: A Charter of the People of Taiwan

Postby jesus80 » 01 Jul 2014, 11:12

sofun wrote:
jesus80 wrote:So Fun, I think you wrote Fomosa instead of Formosa somewhere in your charter.

In my opinion, Taiwan is what it is. It's currently a country of fact, but it never was much of a country during the last thousand of years. But I'm not an expert in history, of course.

I liked the part where you say that many foreigners will be "making babies" with Taiwanese woman...


Yes.

Quoting my own writing, the "already united as one distinct people and established one permanent and uniform country over the entirety of the Islands of Formosa and Pescadores," , I did not say Taiwan was a country in the year 1000AD or 1500AD. etc. I was being very careful. But by the time 2014, or 2015, this statement is already true.


Well, I meant that perhaps it is what it is thanks to having being invaded by the Japanese and more importantly, by the ROC ;)
User avatar
jesus80
"Drinks for the House!"
 
Posts: 4125
Joined: 11 Feb 2011, 10:31



Re: A Charter of the People of Taiwan

Postby sofun » 01 Jul 2014, 11:26

jesus80 wrote:
sofun wrote:
jesus80 wrote:So Fun, I think you wrote Fomosa instead of Formosa somewhere in your charter.

In my opinion, Taiwan is what it is. It's currently a country of fact, but it never was much of a country during the last thousand of years. But I'm not an expert in history, of course.

I liked the part where you say that many foreigners will be "making babies" with Taiwanese woman...


Yes.

Quoting my own writing, the "already united as one distinct people and established one permanent and uniform country over the entirety of the Islands of Formosa and Pescadores," , I did not say Taiwan was a country in the year 1000AD or 1500AD. etc. I was being very careful. But by the time 2014, or 2015, this statement is already true.


Well, I meant that perhaps it is what it is thanks to having being invaded by the Japanese and more importantly, by the ROC ;)

sure, it's up to different interpretations.
But that part of the preamble implies that, one way or another, it is a country now, whether anybody likes it or not.
sofun
Martyr's Shrine Guard (zhōngliècí wèibīng)
Martyr's Shrine Guard (zhōngliècí wèibīng)
 
Posts: 1722
{ AUTHOR_TOPIC }
Joined: 26 Jun 2014, 15:20



Re: A Charter of the People of Taiwan

Postby sofun » 01 Jul 2014, 11:37

Ermintrude wrote:So why ask foreigners to write it, if you don't even consider all Taiwanese people covered by this? Just write what you want and get it translated.

This forum is an English one, yes? Besides, I did not specify only "foreigners" to help, in my OP.

Ermintrude wrote: Do you consider the millions of Taiwanese born Americans to be exempt from constitutional protection?


Quoting my own draft of preamble again, "Whereas we unanimously recognize oursevles as the descendants, inheritors and individual constituents of this people", Taiwanese Americans are welcome to sign this Charter. The Charter should be made specific about the the scope of its application.

Ermintrude wrote:Anyway, can't see you having much look crowd sourcing your translation with this nonsense in its current form. If that is your actual purpose in posting this.


That's okay. In its current form, it is on Forumosa for hacking, writing and editing. Hell, I'm not gonna write everything and do all the work myself!
sofun
Martyr's Shrine Guard (zhōngliècí wèibīng)
Martyr's Shrine Guard (zhōngliècí wèibīng)
 
Posts: 1722
{ AUTHOR_TOPIC }
Joined: 26 Jun 2014, 15:20



Re: A Charter of the People of Taiwan

Postby Ermintrude » 01 Jul 2014, 11:52

You misunderstand. Taiwanese-born Americans are legally Americans. American-born Taiwanese are not Taiwanese, according to ythis document. The ethnocentrism is not unattractive to many expats. No, it's not an 'English' forum.

Do it in Chinese and get it professionally translated. As it stands, the 'legalese' is full of errors. It also sounds odd in English because it's a culturally-bound document, like when China or north Korea issues dictats in English about the feelings of the x people. :cactus:

Anyway, I have a feeling you don't want advice, just free English editing. It might be more forthcoming if you were less opaque regarding your intentions.
'And we'll hide from the cunts, on our night reconnaissance'.
Ermintrude
Generalissimo (dàyuánshuài)
Generalissimo (dàyuánshuài)
 
Posts: 4406
Joined: 10 Jan 2013, 08:24



Re: A Charter of the People of Taiwan

Postby sofun » 01 Jul 2014, 12:00

Ermintrude wrote:.... if you don't even consider all Taiwanese people covered by this? ...

What do you mean??

Certainly all those who are the People of Taiwan are encouraged to sign.

Furthermore, those who are not but are currently living in Taiwan will be better protected by this Charter (once it comes into force) than any current legal framework.
sofun
Martyr's Shrine Guard (zhōngliècí wèibīng)
Martyr's Shrine Guard (zhōngliècí wèibīng)
 
Posts: 1722
{ AUTHOR_TOPIC }
Joined: 26 Jun 2014, 15:20



FRIENDLY REMINDER
   Please remember that Forumosa is not responsible for the content that appears on the other side of links that Forumosans post on our forums. As a discussion website, we encourage open and frank debate. We have learned that the most effective way to address questionable claims or accusations on Forumosa is by engaging in a sincere and constructive conversation. To make this website work, we must all feel safe in expressing our opinions, this also means backing up any claims with hard facts, including links to other websites.
   Please also remember that one should not believe everything one reads on the Internet, particularly from websites whose content cannot be easily verified or substantiated. Use your common sense and do not hesitate to ask for proof.
PreviousNext




Return to Human Rights



Who is online

Forumosans browsing this forum: No Forumosans and 0 guests

cron