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Breach of Contract?

Work Permits, Employment Qualifications, Employer Problems
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Re: Breach of Contract?

Postby Abacus » 15 Dec 2015, 11:49

just_chris wrote:So as far as the bereavement they are telling me the math is what it is because I don't work 8 hours a day


26 hours/wk means you work about 5 hours/day. Or do you also work Saturdays and a Saturday is included in the 8 days of leave. The math isn't so funny if that is the case.
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Re: Breach of Contract?

Postby just_chris » 15 Dec 2015, 12:12

yyy wrote:
just_chris wrote:So as far as the bereavement they are telling me the math is what it is because I don't work 8 hours a day


Did they show you the formula by which they turned 26 into 32.5? (It looks like 0.8 or 1.25, but I don't see how that could work.) And did you tell them about the MOL's rules for part-time workers?


No, I didn't see a formula and she only said this was what their lawyer came up with. I also don't know about the part time rules

Abacus wrote:
just_chris wrote:So as far as the bereavement they are telling me the math is what it is because I don't work 8 hours a day


26 hours/wk means you work about 5 hours/day. Or do you also work Saturdays and a Saturday is included in the 8 days of leave. The math isn't so funny if that is the case.


I do wok on Saturdays, I have 3 days a week I work 3 1/2 hours or less
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Re: Breach of Contract?

Postby yyy » 15 Dec 2015, 13:18

just_chris wrote:No, I didn't see a formula and she only said this was what their lawyer came up with. I also don't know about the part time rules

I do wok on Saturdays, I have 3 days a week I work 3 1/2 hours or less

I meant the "precautions" document I mentioned earlier: http://www.mol.gov.tw/topic/9677/

You can work anywhere from 1 to 6 days per week and anywhere from 0 to 8 hours per day, and the "weekly hours / 42 x 8 x days of leave" formula should still apply.

Incompetence (both by the management and by the lawyer) is always a possibility, but lack of transparency suggests malice.
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Re: Breach of Contract?

Postby just_chris » 10 Jan 2016, 23:38

yyy wrote:
just_chris wrote:"As the pay for your father’s funeral, an employee who works 42 hours a week will have 8 paid days for parents’ death."

"The total hours are 32.5. Your weekly working hours during that time was 26. According to our lawyer’s calculation, the pay you will receive is:"

So I would have worked 32.5 total hours but I am only getting paid for 26 because my normal work woke isn't 42 hours? I'm not sure I understand

This is the exact text of 僱用部分時間工作勞工應行注意事項 6.3.4: (http://laws.mol.gov.tw/Chi/FLAW/FLAWDAT0202.asp)

婚、喪、事、病假依勞工請假規則辦理,其請假之每日時數,得參考下列方式計給:
按勞工平均每週工作時數除以 42 小時(依每 2 週法定正常工作時間推算平均每週工作時數)乘以應給予請假日數乘以 8 小時。

There's no official translation that I know of. Here's mine:

Marriage, bereavement, personal, and sick leave are handled in accordance with the Regulations of Leave-Taking of Workers [the document referred to by LSA Art. 43], and the number of hours per day of the leave [they actually mean the total hours] shall be calculated with reference to the following method:
Take the worker's average number of weekly working hours, divide by 42 hours (based on the biweekly legally prescribed normal work time calculation of average working hours [this means use a two week period to calculate the weekly average]), multiply it by the number of days for which leave should be granted, and multiply it by 8 hours.


If you had a weekly average of 42 hours or a biweekly average of 84 -- the pre-5-day-work-week full-time standard -- you would get the standard 8 hours per day, for the relevant number of days, which is 8 in this case.

42 / 42 x 8 x 8 = 64 hours

As a buxiban teacher you're supposed to have a maximum of 32 hours per week among all your buxibans, so if you're at the maximum you should get this:

32 / 42 x 8 x 8 = 48.76 hours

(Of course, if they scheduled additional hours in the two weeks before you went on leave, they still need to pay on the basis of those hours.)

If you were at 26h/week, you should get this:

26 / 42 x 8 x 8 = 39.62 hours

You can ask the labor department to confirm this, but they sometimes get confused about these things. If you find anything they say doubtful, ask the Ministry of Labor (http://english.mol.gov.tw/homeinfo/6462/19948/) and then get a non-co-worker friend to translate the response.


Just an update, turns out you are correct ,the Ministry of Labor confirmed your math to me, they stated it's clearly stated in Chinese so there is no reason the school should have stated otherwise. I said to her and how about when I emailed them back and with the correct equation and she said the only thing she could think of was the school didn't want to pay me. I am going tomorrow to get this resolved.
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Re: Breach of Contract?

Postby yyy » 12 Jan 2016, 14:20

just_chris wrote:Just an update, turns out you are correct ,the Ministry of Labor confirmed your math to me, they stated it's clearly stated in Chinese so there is no reason the school should have stated otherwise. I said to her and how about when I emailed them back and with the correct equation and she said the only thing she could think of was the school didn't want to pay me. I am going tomorrow to get this resolved.

How did it go?
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Re: Breach of Contract?

Postby just_chris » 12 Jan 2016, 17:02

She changed it to Thursday morning but I'm thinking it will go well
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Re: Breach of Contract?

Postby just_chris » 17 Jan 2016, 00:32

So she agreed that there was definitely an issue, so she contacted the school. The person I've been dealing with at the school called me yesterday and tried to harass me and making me feel guilty for going to the labor board. She then said that they consulted with another labor board and their lawyer and they both agreed that the school paid me the correct amount so now they have to see what the two labor boards agree to, this just seems like stalling tactics hoping I'll leave Taiwan before they actually pay me. I find it highly unlikely there is a 2nd labor board involved as it seems at least based on this thread and what the labor board in Taoyuan (where the school is based) it's very clear what the law states.
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Re: Breach of Contract?

Postby yyy » 17 Jan 2016, 17:53

just_chris wrote:So she agreed that there was definitely an issue, so she contacted the school. The person I've been dealing with at the school called me yesterday and tried to harass me and making me feel guilty for going to the labor board. She then said that they consulted with another labor board and their lawyer and they both agreed that the school paid me the correct amount so now they have to see what the two labor boards agree to, this just seems like stalling tactics hoping I'll leave Taiwan before they actually pay me. I find it highly unlikely there is a 2nd labor board involved as it seems at least based on this thread and what the labor board in Taoyuan (where the school is based) it's very clear what the law states.

The city or county in which the work actually occurs is supposed to determine which labor department (whether it's called 勞動局, 勞工局 or 勞工處) is responsible, regardless of where you live or where the company's head office is. In the context of labor law, a labor department (or technically the city/county government it belongs to) is called a competent authority (主管機關).

If two labor departments disagree, the opinion of the Central Competent Authority (中央主管機關) i.e. the Ministry of Labor (勞動部) should prevail.

If these three (?) buxibans are in more than one city, you may need to go to each city to get it fully taken care of, dividing the hours/salary according to how much you worked in each buxiban. It should be possible to handle everything online through each city's website. Perhaps the person who's already handling your case can guide you through it.

As for the stalling, you can appoint (委任) someone to handle the case for you after you leave. Even if you don't intend to do that (to avoid bank transfer issues etc.), you can still make the threat. :cool:
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Re: Breach of Contract?

Postby just_chris » 28 Jan 2016, 10:38

So the school is still trying to screw me over, it's amazing how hard some people will fight you to do what is the right thing. They are telling me there is a specific formula exclusively for "cram schools" which seems very shady to me. My theory is this school has 18 branches exclusively in one county and has been in business nearly 40 years so the owner likely has some friends at the labor board which unlikely as it seems would never surprise me. So despite what it says in the labor regulations which where presented to the school in Chinese by the labor board who told me the school was wrong are somehow not correct.

This was their reply,

I have had a talk with Miss Wu about your bereavement money. She admitted that the formula 26/42x8 daysx8hrs is wrong. 39.62 hours are over 9.5 days according to your weekly hours.
The formula we had for you was based on the answer from an officer, Mr. Lu, who works at the labor insurance department and our lawyer calculated the amount. The answer was specific for cram schools’ teachers and employees’ situation. After the talk with Miss Wu, we consulted another officer at the labor insurance department. He didn’t know either because Foreign English teachers’ working hours are complicated and can’t really fit in the normal regulations.

We now still follow the answer from Mr. Lu but use the average hours, not the actual hours, and times 26/42 (proportion according to the weekly working hours).

(26hrs/6 days x 8 days x NT$600) x 26/42=NT$12,896
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Re: Breach of Contract?

Postby Abacus » 28 Jan 2016, 14:59

How many hours of class did you miss? That would also be a reasonable way to calculate it.
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