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Theism/atheism debates

Re: Theism/atheism debates

Postby triceratopses » 01 Mar 2016, 12:35

zender wrote:The real historical Buddha (to be) was born to a standing woman who held the branch of a tree while the baby Buddha came out of her side. T'was a miraculous birth involving a white elephant and no vagina passage.

And as soon as he was born, he stood on the earth and took even steps, saying, "I am the best in the world. This is my last existence. I will have no birth again."

And the true factual history is that during those six austere years, he lived on a grain of rice a day, and later on nothing at all! So, we know that fat Chinese picture of him is FALSE MYTHICAL CRAP!

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.


As with all buddhist sutras they are supposed to be eye-witness accounts from people who were there, actually saw what they saw and heard what they heard, and reported it. They are not meant to be taken as stories or speculation. They are like police reports absent of police corruption and confusion. You can find it difficult to believe and think they are untrue or mistaken, who cares.

Personally I don't pay much attention to such matters since it's not important and outside my experience. What is not outside my experience however are states of perfect concentration. It is not even slightly controversial to me and within my sphere of experience that a person can remain in a 1 week concentrated absorption without food or water or movement. There are deeper levels of concentration such as the 4th dhyana where the breathe itself is said to cease entirely and one can remain in this manner for months.

This is likely due to a particular gas produced in the human body which scientists have recently identified and are experimenting on. They can now cease brain and heart function in mammals for weeks and resuscitate them without harming brain nor heart function. The advanced meditators have a rough idea why this process might work in the way it does.

Having achieved all possible states of concentration I would expect someone like the buddha who is extremely mentally developed (you don't even what that means) to be able to endure for an extended period of time. This is not something special to me. I consider it as normal as driving a car is now seen as normal, though it didn't to people 100 yrs ago.

Less refined perfect states of concentration are now scientifically verifiable indirectly using brain scans. The most intelligent Harvard scholar tested could induce about 4 seconds of concentration on his mental object. This is very impressive for someone untrained. It means he heard nothing, saw nothing, he could induce enough mental lucidity on his chosen object for 4 seconds to not be distracted by anything else. Again, very impressive level of lucidity for someone untrained. Most people can not induce anything close to such clarity without training. Someone with training can do that for hours on end. It's not a trance, or a daze, or a dullness, it is a heightened mental focus that is so lucid alive and powerful that it excludes interruption from everything but the object you choose to examine (no sounds can disturb you, no stench of french fry or cheeseburger can distract you).

This of course has severe biological impact which is only now beginning to be research. I'm against it.
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Re: Theism/atheism debates

Postby zender » 01 Mar 2016, 14:31

Thanks for setting me straight, triceratopses. I do believe that most of us have so many thoughts racing through our skulls that four seconds without thought would be impossible. I have this curse. My brain is so active that, try as I may, I can't get it to stop. I'm sure meditation would do me good; it helps me to repeat a mantra as I scooter around Taipei. My mantra is "Drive safely; arrive alive." I'm thinking about trying some form of meditation out when I go to Haridwar and Rishikesh next month for the Kumbh Mela.

I honestly didn't know that there were people who could go for months without breathing. Is there anyone who can do 4th dhyana now? It's a shame that the James Randi Educational Foundation's Million Dollar Challenge has been terminated.
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Re: Theism/atheism debates

Postby Ermintrude » 01 Mar 2016, 14:34

The Milofu makes a mockery of The China Study.

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Re: Theism/atheism debates

Postby zender » 01 Mar 2016, 15:03

Thank you, Ermintrude.

This lesser wheel sounds perfect for my scooter.
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Re: Theism/atheism debates

Postby Ermintrude » 01 Mar 2016, 15:20

You'll still need special tyres for India.
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Re: Theism/atheism debates

Postby zender » 01 Mar 2016, 15:31

Will I?

When people meditate hard enough, they don't need air or food. I'm going to meditate like crazy, so hopefully, I won't need tires.

There's a guy in India, who claims he hasn't eaten or drunk anything in 75 years. I'll try to find him. He may know a secret or two.
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Re: Theism/atheism debates

Postby Tempo Gain » 01 Mar 2016, 16:25

triceratopses wrote:Sigh. Usually it's the annoying spiritual quacks that bring quantum physics in a discussion about free will, not materialists.


If it wasn't for you, it wouldn't be in the discussion even tangentially. I rest my case.

Quantum physics has no place in neuroscience. The ontological status of uncertainty is like "dark matter", it's a word with zero non-theoretical meaning. Uncertainty could easily end up just being a physical process subtler than our space-time. In fact that is precisely the position of probably the leading authority on quantum physicists anton zeilinger. There are no "real observers" he and dawkins explain, observers are illusions, there are only coarse and subtle physical mechanations.


It doesn't matter. Scientists don't agree on these highly theoretical questions. Dennett who you have brought up repeatedly is a philosopher for crying out loud. You have no grounds to even try to tell me what I have to believe with regards to the subject. Again, this is a pathetic way to try to demonstrate the value of a position.

I've never stated my position. It's just that the vast majority of the materialists i talk to actually know their position and don't say dopey shit like mind is the physical brain yet insist that qualia are real. When you say such things you're saying that mind is both entirely the brain and entirely not the brain.


You're putting words in my mouth again, and banging that hammer again. I will state a position though, even though it seems you care not to. The mind is entirely the brain, and we are able to use that mind to make moral judgments. Simple. Everything you've introduced to refute that is besides the point, entirely.
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Re: Theism/atheism debates

Postby BrentGolf » 01 Mar 2016, 18:46

triceratopses wrote:It is not even slightly controversial to me and within my sphere of experience that a person can remain in a 1 week concentrated absorption without food or water or movement. There are deeper levels of concentration such as the 4th dhyana where the breathe itself is said to cease entirely and one can remain in this manner for months.


So we'll just agree to disagree on what we consider controversial then. Personally I believe months without breathing might violate a few things we know about the human body, but hey what do I know. I'm not technically a doctor so maybe eating, drinking and breathing is entirely overrated and a complete waste of time. :eek:
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Re: Theism/atheism debates

Postby MikeN » 01 Mar 2016, 21:11

triceratopses wrote:
Personally I don't pay much attention to such matters since it's not important and outside my experience. What is not outside my experience however are states of perfect concentration. It is not even slightly controversial to me and within my sphere of experience that a person can remain in a 1 week concentrated absorption without food or water or movement.


So you saw this? This person was under strict observation 24/7? This can be duplicated under controlled conditions? Or do you have to be one of the faithful, not one of these skeptics whose observations will destroy the 'perfect concentration'?

There are deeper levels of concentration such as the 4th dhyana where the breathe itself is said to cease entirely and one can remain in this manner for months.


But of course to actually demonstrate this in a controlled environment would be throwing pearls before the swine of the unenlightened mob- only those who have obtained the Twelfth Level of the Eighth Step of the Fourteenth Mystical Awakening can observe such wonders

"Hah. You're just trying to piss me off by amassing as much ignorance into a single place as possible"

"Congraturations. You should go and tell someone important."

"...(you wouldn't even [know] what that means)"


For a Buddhist you seem to have a lot of anger.

"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, and from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

"Abandoning divisive speech... What he has heard here he does not tell there to break those people apart from these people here...Thus reconciling those who have broken apart or cementing those who are united, he loves concord, delights in concord, enjoys concord, speaks things that create concord...

Abandoning abusive speech... He speaks words that are soothing to the ear, that are affectionate, that go to the heart, that are polite, appealing and pleasing to people at large..."
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Re: Theism/atheism debates

Postby Mucha Man » 01 Mar 2016, 23:10

How on earth has a thread on communicating with god, religious brain circuits, super beings and their worldly concerns, or finding moral values in anarchic nature gotten so weird?
“Everywhere else in the world is also really old” said Prof. Liu, a renowned historian at Beijing University. “We always learn that China has 5000 years of cultural heritage, and that therefore we are very special. It appears that other places also have some of this heritage stuff. And are also old. Like, really old.”

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