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Theism/atheism debates

Re: Theism/atheism debates

Postby BrentGolf » 04 Mar 2016, 12:13

triceratopses wrote:Last time I'm saying it. If you don't know that the standard view of 99% of scientists is scientific materialism, meaning that mind is an emergent property of the brain, meaning that mind as an actual subject experience (qualia) is 100% an unequivocal illusion, then you just don't know what you're talking about.


First, let's be honest there's no way that's the last time you'll say it. Secondly, nobody in this thread has denied basic materialism. I'm not sure why you are arguing with yourself. If you re-read the thread you'll quickly realize that you've just made a simple mistake in interpreting what was said. No harm no foul, happens sometimes on chat forums. But nobody here is disputing anything that 99% of scientists believe. Some things go without saying...

It also strikes me as odd that you're trying to claim other people are not scientific, yet you believe without question it's possible to go months without eating, drinking, and breathing. It seems there's a little bit of a disconnect somewhere here...


Trying to talk to you about this is like watching a tennis match.


or as Sam Harris has said, playing tennis without the net. :)
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Re: Theism/atheism debates

Postby Mucha Man » 04 Mar 2016, 13:59

Er, the tennis quote is from Robert Frost. Otherwise, yep.
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Re: Theism/atheism debates

Postby BrentGolf » 04 Mar 2016, 14:20

Mucha Man wrote:Er, the tennis quote is from Robert Frost. Otherwise, yep.


was not aware of the original quote, but Harris delivered it perfectly so I say it's his :)
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Re: Theism/atheism debates

Postby Ermintrude » 04 Mar 2016, 16:03

triceratopses wrote:If you don't know that the standard view of 99% of scientists is scientific materialism, meaning that mind is an emergent property of the brain, meaning that mind as an actual subject experience (qualia) is 100% an unequivocal illusion, then you just don't know what you're talking about. I'm sorry, keep studying, you will eventually run into this extremely standard non-controversial obvious point.


It's just not in any way interesting. It's like saying 'frogs don't make umbrellas'. The only response is 'And?'
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Re: Theism/atheism debates

Postby MikeN » 04 Mar 2016, 17:09

MikeN wrote:This can be duplicated under controlled conditions?


1 week in absorption is a relatively simple attainment. Being able to remain on your chosen object through the use of concentration to the point that your flesh burning does not interrupt you is still yet a lower level of concentration. So if that vietnamese monk could remain on his object while burning, how in the f*** is a "skeptic" going to harm anything in any way.


Because that's one of the standard excuses when these people fail to achieve their claims- even Jesus used it- or, more usually, for declining to submit their claims to scrutiny.

No one is saying people can't train themselves to ignore pain; the question is can they do what is by normal scientific standards physiologically impossible things like go for weeks without drinking - the maximum length is considered to be about two weeks in ideal conditions (healthy individual, no movement, damp cool surroundings).

Breathing, five minutes or so for normal conditions; up to an hour or more in hypothermia; 22 minutes by preparing by hyerventilating in pure oxygen.

A month? When and where have these amazing feats been demonstrated, and if not, why not?
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Re: Theism/atheism debates

Postby triceratopses » 05 Mar 2016, 02:56

Tempo Gain wrote:
triceratopses wrote:Therefore there is ZERO distinction between well-being, ripping all the skin off the faces of young children for fun, and living and dying, outside of pointing to each and saying "in this case the particles are moving this way, and in this case the particles are moving that way"

Essentially, this is my point: this does not follow from your statement above.


I already gave the reasoning several times. For the 10th time, it follows logically: if there are no qualia, as materialists assert, then any qualia (subjective experience) of well-being and any child's qualia of horror and pain are exactly equal. Equally non-existent.

All there are are particles, in one scenario there are certain chemicals causing muscles to relax inflammation to subside etcetc. In the other there are pain signals causing limbs to flail a mouth to scream and sweat to exude through the skin as the adrenal system goes crazy. And that's all. There are just physical structures and their physical mechanations, there are no "moral physical structures" "bad structures" "good structures" another poster also told you this.
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Re: Theism/atheism debates

Postby triceratopses » 05 Mar 2016, 03:12

BrentGolf wrote: yet you believe without question it's possible to go months without eating, drinking, and breathing. It seems there's a little bit of a disconnect somewhere here...


Didn't say belief anywhere. The absorption for a week meaning no eating and drinking for a week, very easy. Would take less than a year of training if a person isn't a complete douche. Not breathing for a year, I'm neutral about it, but I wouldn't be even slightly surprised since I know what happens to the breath heart etc during perfect concentration.

What makes me neutral is not the biology. I don't think modern science has a fu**ing clue about biology aside from the very coarse. I'm neutral about it because I can't conceive of such level of concentration. I think as tech improves and brain and body imaging becomes far more sophisticated we can start seeing new things and new states that aren't known or common. For example it wasn't until recently that fats could be detected in plants, because it's so minute, and we didn't have the tech sophisticated enough to detect it. Stuff like that.

Must be a stroke of luck that sustained concentration is easily detectable in brain imaging, otherwise even that which is considered superhuman by neuroscientists yet is considered as very basic by authentic meditators (most are bs hoaxers) would still be unknown and inaccessible.
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Re: Theism/atheism debates

Postby triceratopses » 05 Mar 2016, 03:26

MikeN wrote:Because that's one of the standard excuses when these people fail to achieve their claims- even Jesus used it- or, more usually, for declining to submit their claims to scrutiny.


Excuses? Maybe they're telling the truth. The only thing you can do is receive their reasoning and try to establish whether the reasoning is logically coherent or not. Whether it is simple or complex. Whether it has a long history or not, whether has been maintained or not generation to generation. If they don't want to submit themselves to testing, then that only means your total method of verification is limited.

What usually screws secularists is severe bias where they mistakenly deny parts of other's reasoning out of prejudice.

Bias NEVER serves you and the extreme arrogance of modern establishments have really forgotten that. That might be one of your answers. Another is that the west thinks they're so good. How many classics has the western lineage written in history? Like 5000, I can't remember exactly. India and everywhere near the north of it have written like 100,000s. 100,000s on the magnitude of Shakespeare. 50000 Socrateses and Shakespeareses running around. You're not that cool. You killed Socrates then went on a raping killing rampage across the world.

I recall a large gathering between bunch of prominent scientists Neil Tyson was there Dawkins Krauss etc and Harris got up and started talking about how rebirth might actually be possible if it turns out mind (qualia) is primary, just as form cannot be destroyed, compounded states of mind ie. human minds subside into subtler states before becoming compounded again due to causes and conditions (one of which was the previous human life). Neil made lots of fun of him, and the others you can see looked a little embarrassed though they listened to the reasoning and evidence
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Re: Theism/atheism debates

Postby Tempo Gain » 05 Mar 2016, 11:17

I already gave the reasoning several times. For the 10th time, it follows logically: if there are no qualia, as materialists assert, then any qualia (subjective experience) of well-being and any child's qualia of horror and pain are exactly equal. Equally non-existent.


Thanks for outlining this again. I will disagree again that it follows logically. Our minds are finely honed tools for perceiving what exists in reality. Not all states in reality are equal, and our minds are capable of differentiating between them, including the states of other animals and humans.

All there are are particles, in one scenario there are certain chemicals causing muscles to relax inflammation to subside etcetc. In the other there are pain signals causing limbs to flail a mouth to scream and sweat to exude through the skin as the adrenal system goes crazy. And that's all. There are just physical structures and their physical mechanations, there are no "moral physical structures" "bad structures" "good structures" another poster also told you this.


Those physical reactions result from different states of reality which have various effects on the well-being of ourselves and others and which our minds are capable of assessing. Through these assessments we can make judgments about moral questions based on objective criteria. Nothing has to be intrinsically good or bad in a cosmic sense for this to be true, and nothing about this conflicts with materialism.
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Re: Theism/atheism debates

Postby BrentGolf » 05 Mar 2016, 11:35

triceratopses wrote:Didn't say belief anywhere. The absorption for a week meaning no eating and drinking for a week, very easy. Would take less than a year of training if a person isn't a complete douche. Not breathing for a year, I'm neutral about it, but I wouldn't be even slightly surprised since I know what happens to the breath heart etc during perfect concentration.


Just because you didn't say the actual word belief doesn't mean you haven't very clearly represented one. You said it's not even the slightest bit controversial, and you wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised, and you're "neutral" about not breathing for a year. Also, anybody who disagrees with your clearly represented belief on these things not only gets debated, but actually gets called an idiot. That looks to me like a pretty straight to the point belief that you aggressively defend.

If I say the existence of unicorns isn't even the slightest bit controversial, and I wouldn't be even slightly surprised to see one, and I'm neutral on whether they can read our minds, that kinda sorta sounds like I believe in unicorns does it not? :loco:

So call me an idiot if you like, but I'm the furthest thing from neutral on the idea that a human can go without breathing for a year. I'm sure you've heard this before, a claim that extraordinary that so overtly trespasses on everything we know about the human body should require some pretty extraordinary evidence. Since there is none I agree with you, it's not even the slightest bit controversial.


triceratopses wrote:How many classics has the western lineage written in history? Like 5000, I can't remember exactly. India and everywhere near the north of it have written like 100,000s. 100,000s on the magnitude of Shakespeare. 50000 Socrateses and Shakespeareses running around. You're not that cool. You killed Socrates then went on a raping killing rampage across the world.


Dude I haven't gone on a raping and killing rampage in years :roll:
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