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Theism/atheism debates

Re: Theism/atheism debates

Postby MikeN » 05 Mar 2016, 23:13

triceratopses wrote:
MikeN wrote:Because that's one of the standard excuses when these people fail to achieve their claims- even Jesus used it- or, more usually, for declining to submit their claims to scrutiny.


Excuses? Maybe they're telling the truth.

Or...maybe they're not- you know, like when the TM people were losing their following, so they suddenly claimed they could fly. You believe them, of course?

The only thing you can do is receive their reasoning and try to establish whether the reasoning is logically coherent or not. Whether it is simple or complex. Whether it has a long history or not, whether has been maintained or not generation to generation.

Um, no- if some people claim can live for a year without breathing, they are making an empirical claim, which is not something you establish by logic- you do it by testing. Doesn't matter how many generations have been claiming this ability, or how complex their reasoning is. Remember cold fusion? Uri Geller?

If they don't want to submit themselves to testing, then that only means your total method of verification is limited.


No, it doesn't- whether or not they want to submit themselves to it has nothing to do with whether the method is valid or not; it only speaks to their inclinations- whatever their motive for declining.

What usually screws secularists is severe bias where they mistakenly deny parts of other's reasoning out of prejudice.

I'm not saying anything whatsoever about their reasoning- I'm simply asking to see evidence of a physical verifiable claim they're making. If they tell me they have achieved a state of unity with cosmic consciousness, I'll say "good for you".

Bias NEVER serves you and the extreme arrogance of modern establishments have really forgotten that. That might be one of your answers.


Question: do you believe everything that anyone of any religious/spiritual/magical belief tradition says? If not, aren't you doing exactly the same thing, proclaiming the superiority of one tradition?

Another is that the west thinks they're so good. How many classics has the western lineage written in history? Like 5000, I can't remember exactly. India and everywhere near the north of it have written like 100,000s. 100,000s on the magnitude of Shakespeare. 50000 Socrateses and Shakespeareses running around.

And, even if true- and it's obviously subjective and/or culturally biased- what does this have to do with whether a person can live for a year without breathing?
You're not that cool. You killed Socrates


I wasn't even in Athens that weekend- I was visiting my buddy Daedalus down in Crete.
then went on a raping killing rampage across the world.


No, man, that was my cuz Alex, from up in Macedonia

I recall a large gathering between bunch of prominent scientists Neil Tyson was there Dawkins Krauss etc and Harris got up and started talking about how rebirth might actually be possible if it turns out mind (qualia) is primary, just as form cannot be destroyed, compounded states of mind ie. human minds subside into subtler states before becoming compounded again due to causes and conditions (one of which was the previous human life). Neil made lots of fun of him, and the others you can see looked a little embarrassed though they listened to the reasoning and evidence


No, I can't see- don't have my Third Eye open at the moment (you ever read Lobsang Rampa?- now there was cosmic wisdom, bro.)
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Re: Theism/atheism debates

Postby Dragonbones » 05 Mar 2016, 23:18

Mucha Man wrote:Self-reported studies never lie.


I assume you mean studies based on self-reported data. If so, it's emphatically not wise to always take them at face value, because, for instance, of the tendency toward socially desirable answers on sensitive questions, e.g. regarding virginity, STDs, sexual experiences and inclinations, infidelity, and so on. See e.g. http://www.psychologyconcepts.com/socia ... lity-bias/ (There are various techniques being tested to overcome such obstacles.)

However, there seems to be no reason for social desirability on self-reported measures such as happiness, so in the case of Bhutan, there's no obvious reason to doubt the data.
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Re: Theism/atheism debates

Postby finley » 05 Mar 2016, 23:22

Apparently 41% report as happy, which seems a bit on the low side if they're the happiest country on earth. On that basis I'd expect, say, the curmudgeonly British to be reporting about 7% happy.

I remember reading something about happiness surveys during my nap time in the library. IIRC, most people consider themselves happy unless they're actually depressed. Therefore even in places where you would expect people to be downright miserable - Britain, say, or Somalia - they still report as basically happy because well-adjusted people seek out things to be happy about, even if they've got a severely restricted palette of options.
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Re: Theism/atheism debates

Postby Mucha Man » 05 Mar 2016, 23:38

Dragonbones wrote:
Mucha Man wrote:Self-reported studies never lie.


I assume you mean studies based on self-reported data. If so, it's emphatically not wise to always take them at face value, because, for instance, of the tendency toward socially desirable answers on sensitive questions, e.g. regarding virginity, STDs, sexual experiences and inclinations, infidelity, and so on. See e.g. http://www.psychologyconcepts.com/socia ... lity-bias/ (There are various techniques being tested to overcome such obstacles.)

However, there seems to be no reason for social desirability on self-reported measures such as happiness, so in the case of Bhutan, there's no obvious reason to doubt the data.


You're a little low in irony these daze though yes I meant the longer sentence. I thought I had actually written that.
“Everywhere else in the world is also really old” said Prof. Liu, a renowned historian at Beijing University. “We always learn that China has 5000 years of cultural heritage, and that therefore we are very special. It appears that other places also have some of this heritage stuff. And are also old. Like, really old.”

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Re: Theism/atheism debates

Postby Ermintrude » 05 Mar 2016, 23:54

Mucha Man wrote:Bhutan is the happiest place on earth.


I meant for me, not the inhabitants. :lol: For example, yer average Bangkokese person is as happy as a clam but the place makes me want to bash my own brains in after a couple of weeks, without fail.

Of course they are happy because they have an insular, incredibly solipsistic way of relating to the world. If your chief religious practice is sitting on your arse, pretending not to think about yourself, you're bound to feel good because it's essentially a closed system with very little disturbing feedback from interaction with other people. Plato's cave stuff.

Dat is intresting, finley.
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Re: Theism/atheism debates

Postby finley » 06 Mar 2016, 10:20

Ermintrude wrote:Of course they are happy because they have an insular, incredibly solipsistic way of relating to the world. If your chief religious practice is sitting on your arse, pretending not to think about yourself, you're bound to feel good because it's essentially a closed system with very little disturbing feedback from interaction with other people. Plato's cave stuff.

Dat is intresting, finley.


Yeah, basically, some bald guy got a research grant for writing a paper about what you just said there. If you google it there's a whole load of research on the methodology of happiness surveys and the sources of bias, error, etc.

Just my observation: the governments of shit countries take pains to tell the inhabitants (from an early age) how wonderful their shit country is, to make sure they can't see what other countries are like, and to denigrate foreign advantages that are overtly visible. So as well as being inherently happy, as humans generally are unless they're being rounded up and tortured, they construct a bizarre view of reality in which their happiness is caused (in part) by their shit surroundings, thus perpetuating poverty in its various forms.

Middle-class types seem to go along with this. Oh, those Africans, they're always singing and dancing!
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Re: Theism/atheism debates

Postby BrentGolf » 15 Mar 2016, 20:02

The entirely one sided relationship with God, in the words of one of the great poets of our time, Hopsin :cool:

Parental discretion is advised :oops:


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Re: Theism/atheism debates

Postby Tempo Gain » 15 Mar 2016, 23:23

pretty sick
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Re: Theism/atheism debates

Postby Tempo Gain » 05 May 2016, 01:14

Interesting debate on how the concept of Jesus as God developed, for anyone into the more historical side of things

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