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Should I try to make myself get fired or find another job first and then leave?

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Should I try to make myself get fired or find another job first and then leave?

Postby Kaalund » 05 May 2016, 15:16

I have been working in my current company for around 2 years and 4 months. Things are not going too well anymore between me and the company.

I would like to get fired and I have told my manager more than once that if she thinks that I do such a bad job, then why not lay me off? I mean just get it over with, fire me & give me the money that the company is required to according to the law. So far I failed to get fired, so what can I do to get fired ? Yes I could begin to insult my boss and manager, but I want to get fired in a decent way. Or should I just find another job first and then leave? I would really like to get fired, take the money and move on with my life ....
Kaalund
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Re: Should I try to make myself get fired or find another job first and then leave?

Postby Icon » 05 May 2016, 15:41

It is a lose-lose situation.

If you get fired, they can skip some extra cash benefits for you, as you would get a bad evaluation. Especially if you insult your boss. But they still have to pay more than if you quit. So most businesses try their best to make your life hell and force you to quit, hence, they "win" on most accounts. That is why telling you that you do a bad job and other strategies like relegating you to a corner and not giving you any work, or taking micromanagement to sky high levels or just being plain nasty, are all part pof the plan to force you out... Therefore, the plan here as you see does not go in your favor.

Reminds me of Police Academy. You do not want to be there but you can't quit and then they won't let you out...
Lo urgente no deja tiempo para lo importante. Mafalda.

None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Eat the delicious food. Walk in the sunshine. Jump in the ocean. Say the truth that you’re carrying in your heart like hidden treasure. Be silly. Be kind. Be weird. There’s no time for anything else.
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Re: Should I try to make myself get fired or find another job first and then leave?

Postby Kaalund » 05 May 2016, 17:10

If I get fired, there are very clear regulations of how much I have to be paid in compensation. 20 days notice + compensation which is little over 1 month in my case. It is not up for discussion, that is the law.
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Re: Should I try to make myself get fired or find another job first and then leave?

Postby yyy » 05 May 2016, 17:27

Icon wrote:It is a lose-lose situation.

If you get fired, they can skip some extra cash benefits for you, as you would get a bad evaluation. Especially if you insult your boss. But they still have to pay more than if you quit. So most businesses try their best to make your life hell and force you to quit, hence, they "win" on most accounts. That is why telling you that you do a bad job and other strategies like relegating you to a corner and not giving you any work, or taking micromanagement to sky high levels or just being plain nasty, are all part pof the plan to force you out... Therefore, the plan here as you see does not go in your favor.

Reminds me of Police Academy. You do not want to be there but you can't quit and then they won't let you out...

It depends on the reason for the termination.

Option 1: The employer terminates the contract with advance notice (LSA Art. 11). Severance pay is required, plus salary for the notice period (10 to 30 days), plus two days paid leave per week during the notice period. If the employer doesn't want the employee to come to work during the notice period, the salary still needs to be paid.

Option 2: The employee terminates the contract without advance notice (Art. 14). Severance pay is required. (Severance pay may be slightly less this way, because the option 1 notice period makes the period of service slightly longer.)

Option 3: The employer terminates the contract without advance notice (Art. 12). There is no severance pay.

Option 4: The employee terminates the contract with advance notice (Art. 15). There is no severance pay.

What does either party need to use one of these options? Basically,

Option 1: Acceptable if the employer is downsizing due to demonstrable economic hardship or if the employee is demonstrably incompetent.

Option 2: Acceptable if the employer harms the employee (serious insult, violation of labor law, etc.).

Option 3: Acceptable if the employee harms the employer (serious insult, serious violation of the contract, etc.).

Option 4: Acceptable if the contract has no expiry date or if the employee has already worked at least three years.

(A variation of option 1 is Art. 13, for natural disasters etc.)

The above is based on the assumption that the Labor Standards Act applies.

If the employee wants to be laid off as in option 1, and the employer is willing to pay severance pay to get rid of the employee, the employer may still hesitate because it's possible for a court to confirm the ongoing existence of the employment relationship (i.e. because no proper termination occurred), leaving the employer on the hook for salary until the termination is properly conducted (Civil Code Art. 487).

If both sides want to terminate the contract but have doubts about any of the four standard options, they can negotiate and sign a settlement absolving each other of responsibility as long as certain conditions are met (e.g. "you pay me $x within 30 days, and then it's over"). The safe way to do this is through mediation, because if both parties accept a mediated settlement, it will automatically be accepted by a court as a final judgement with no possibility of appeal. This means if the party required to pay refuses to pay, the court will seize that party's bank account or what have you, without any lawsuit needing to be filed.
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Re: Should I try to make myself get fired or find another job first and then leave?

Postby Kaalund » 05 May 2016, 17:47

Thanks for clarifying it.
So if i understand this correctly & I do get fired and unless I insult my boss, then company has to pay severance pay, correct?
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Re: Should I try to make myself get fired or find another job first and then leave?

Postby yyy » 05 May 2016, 18:18

Kaalund wrote:Thanks for clarifying it.
So if i understand this correctly & I do get fired and unless I insult my boss, then company has to pay severance pay, correct?

The details are in those articles of the Labor Standards Act (http://law.moj.gov.tw). If you give them an Art. 12 reason (including but not limited to insulting your boss), they'll owe you nothing. If they have an Art. 11 reason (including but not limited to proven incompetence), they'll owe you severance plus the notice period salary. Either way, the law calls it termination of the contract (終止契約), but "firing" (解僱) implies Art. 12.

If you've worked for 2 years and 4 months, your severance will be 2 1/3 (2.33) months, unless you're Taiwanese or are/were married to a Taiwanese. (This is something a lot of lawyers and civil servants are confused about because they're not used to dealing with foreigners.) Two years and 3 months + 1 day is rounded up to 2 years and 4 months for the purpose of severance pay calculation (Art. 17).

Oh and severance pay is tax free. :)
yyy
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Re: Should I try to make myself get fired or find another job first and then leave?

Postby Kaalund » 05 May 2016, 18:37

I'm married to a Taiwanese, what difference does that make?
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Re: Should I try to make myself get fired or find another job first and then leave?

Postby yyy » 05 May 2016, 18:55

Kaalund wrote:I'm married to a Taiwanese, what difference does that make?

It makes a difference of around 50%. Instead of Art. 17 of the Labor Standards Act, your severance pay will be based on Art. 12(?) of the Labor Pension Act. :cry:

It applies to you because of Art. 7 Par. 1 Subpar. 2 of the LPA.
yyy
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