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Brexit

IP is the place for boisterous political discussion, but please remember, the Rules still apply, especially with regards to Personal Attacks. These and other inappropriate posts will be removed without notification.

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IP is the place for boisterous political discussion, but please remember, the Rules still apply, especially with regards to Personal Attacks. These and other inappropriate posts will be removed without notification.

Re: Brexit

Postby headhonchoII » 19 Jul 2016, 11:28

Now Ireland want's to get our border/unification poll going too. It could be decades out though. I'm not sure what the ROI would do with the bigots though, could they be hived off East Berlin style :)

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-36830452
http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news ... 90941.html
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Re: Brexit

Postby GuyInTaiwan » 19 Jul 2016, 12:12

Anyone who wants his town to be recognisable to him and to continue traditions that have existed for centuries is obviously an idiot. Why wouldn't you want to worship at the temple of Mammon if it meant that you could get the latest mePhone?
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Re: Brexit

Postby BrentGolf » 19 Jul 2016, 13:55

Ermintrude wrote:Anyway, fuck it, let's agree to disagree. :)


Sure we can do that, but in a year or two when Brexiters are complaining about the recession I may have to remind you that those pesky little points about trade deals and the pound and international investment and the economy were actually important after all... :)


GuyInTaiwan wrote:Anyone who wants his town to be recognisable to him and to continue traditions that have existed for centuries is obviously an idiot.


An idiot, no. And not racist either, or any of the other things you Brexiters are claiming people are labeling you. But perhaps a little out of touch with a world that is globalizing and lacking a desire to embrace change, yeah kinda. Many people in the US say the same thing, and in this years election it's front and center. Many Americans want the country to go back to the traditions it was founded on. I suppose there's plenty of Brits who feel the same way. And then there are others who have no problem with globalization. In fact, some crazy people actually choose to live in foreign countries, imagine that. :)
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Re: Brexit

Postby GuyInTaiwan » 20 Jul 2016, 07:32

Brentgolf: Sure. I have chosen to live in a foreign country also. That was my choice. Some people don't want change forced upon them. Maybe that's unrealistic of them, maybe it's not. We are seeing this all over the world though, that a fairly large number of people in many countries are resisting this. Culture is a genuine thing for them, probably in a way that it's not for a whole lot of other people. My point is simply that for some people, culture > economics.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Winston Smith » 20 Jul 2016, 08:02

GuyInTaiwan wrote: . . . My point is simply that for some people, culture > economics.


Taiwan being a case in point. Try telling your Taiwanese spouse about all the economic benefits of One Country/Two Systems and how the economic migrants will be a boon to Taiwan and it's racist to think otherwise and see how that goes over.
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Re: Brexit

Postby headhonchoII » 20 Jul 2016, 08:32

Taiwan wouldn't be Taiwan without massive immigration of Chinese at different timepoints. And if wasn't the Chinese it would have been Japanese or some other group. Just pointing out the obvious here.

The thing about 'protecting culture' is whose culture are you going to protect exactly?

See what's going on in turkey now, do we want the whole world to be carved up into little fiefdoms where an elite class get to benefit from their privileged in-born and correct culture background?

They tried the whom protectionism and culture lark in Ireland when it was a new state. Mostly a disaster until the EU helped the country move in both economically and culturally (still some backward stuff of course). Cultures change and they can change by bringing in fresh ideas or by immigrants introducing their bit to the mix.

These things have always gone in cycles, America has had many cycles of openness and inwardness for 100s of years as just one example. Each new group got pilloried. I do think that when people move to a new country they need to abide by certain societal standards of that place....and yes many Muslims seem to struggle with this. It doesn't help that large numbers are coming from impoverished and backward nations to start with!
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Re: Brexit

Postby GuyInTaiwan » 20 Jul 2016, 08:39

Winston Smith wrote:
GuyInTaiwan wrote: . . . My point is simply that for some people, culture > economics.


Taiwan being a case in point. Try telling your Taiwanese spouse about all the economic benefits of One Country/Two Systems and how the economic migrants will be a boon to Taiwan and it's racist to think otherwise and see how that goes over.


My wife is not that keen on China and the Chinese, but she's fairly well resigned to Taiwan eventually being part of China. Besides, she wants to get out even if that doesn't eventuate because she thinks that Taiwan is up the creek anyway (I tend to agree). Of course, it's then funny when I tell her that I think that most of the West is also up the creek. I tell you, being a pessimist, there's a lot to keep one busy at the present time. Frankly, I'm flat out right now!

I know what you mean though. It's a pretty touchy issue for most Taiwanese (and a lot of Westerners in Taiwan). Yet they seem to have real difficulty with imagining that other people could also have similar feelings about another scenario.
And you coming in to scold us all like some kind of sour-puss kindie assistant who favors olive cardigans and lemon drinks without sugar. -- Muzha Man

One sometimes gets the impression that the mere words "Socialism" and "Communism" draw towards them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac, Quaker, "Nature Cure" quack, pacifist, and feminist in England. -- George Orwell
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Re: Brexit

Postby GuyInTaiwan » 20 Jul 2016, 08:50

headhonchoII wrote:Taiwan wouldn't be Taiwan without massive immigration of Chinese at different timepoints. And if wasn't the Chinese it would have been Japanese or some other group. Just pointing out the obvious here.


I'm not sure exactly what you are trying to point out though. Group A come at a particular time, then Group B come at another time. That doesn't necessarily imply that either group should want Group C to eventually come.

The thing about 'protecting culture' is whose culture are you going to protect exactly?


I'm not sure to whom you are referring, but in a general sense, presumably the existing culture(s) within a place.

See what's going on in turkey now, do we want the whole world to be carved up into little fiefdoms where an elite class get to benefit from their privileged in-born and correct culture background?


I'm not sure that little fiefdoms imply anything of the sort. If anything, an elite class that is of a place and people is more likely to be connected to those people and responsive to them than an international elite class divorced from time and place. You're also assuming that the international elite don't have a very particular cultural background of their own.

Also, I think the opposite holds with Turkey. The current situation is one of overturning an elite culture that is out of touch with ordinary Turks; it's a populist, traditionalist movement. I don't happen to like that movement, but it's odd to associate it with privilege. Women wearing jeans and dying their hair blonde is the privileged, elite position, not the other way around.
And you coming in to scold us all like some kind of sour-puss kindie assistant who favors olive cardigans and lemon drinks without sugar. -- Muzha Man

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Re: Brexit

Postby BrentGolf » 21 Jul 2016, 16:17

GuyInTaiwan wrote:Brentgolf: Sure. I have chosen to live in a foreign country also. That was my choice. Some people don't want change forced upon them. Maybe that's unrealistic of them, maybe it's not. We are seeing this all over the world though, that a fairly large number of people in many countries are resisting this. Culture is a genuine thing for them, probably in a way that it's not for a whole lot of other people. My point is simply that for some people, culture > economics.



The fact that there are large numbers of people resisting globalization is why things like Brexit even happen. I'm all for democracy. If the majority votes to leave, and the reason they are voting that way is because they are trying to preserve their culture then that's what should happen. Majority wins.

My point isn't with what happened though, my point is what with ought to happen. And call me crazy, but I believe that since the economy is pretty much responsible for every asect of peoples lives including the culture they care so much about, it seems ignorant to not put economic arguments at least in the mix when discussing such things. Doesn't always have to be the primary concern, but certainly on the top 3 list of every major decision would be wise. When I hear people say shit like they don't give a flying fuck about economics, it just makes me cringe at how ignorant that is. Economics is a major reason why culture and social structures are stressed in certain countries in the first place. i


It's like saying I don't give a flying fuck about my heart, lungs and central nervous system, I simply care about my health and well being. :eek:
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Re: Brexit

Postby OrangeOrganics » 21 Jul 2016, 16:33

BrentGolf wrote:
GuyInTaiwan wrote:Brentgolf: Sure. I have chosen to live in a foreign country also. That was my choice. Some people don't want change forced upon them. Maybe that's unrealistic of them, maybe it's not. We are seeing this all over the world though, that a fairly large number of people in many countries are resisting this. Culture is a genuine thing for them, probably in a way that it's not for a whole lot of other people. My point is simply that for some people, culture > economics.



The fact that there are large numbers of people resisting globalization is why things like Brexit even happen. I'm all for democracy. If the majority votes to leave, and the reason they are voting that way is because they are trying to preserve their culture then that's what should happen. Majority wins.



Why is your anger not aimed at the EU? Their model of globalization is unsustainable and unfair. It still seems like you have taken your tabloid version of what happened and running with it as fact.

Cameron should never have had the referendum that only asked the question in or out. Was silly way to deal with such a complex issue.

But the finger of blame is firmly at Jucker, Tusk and the plutocrats in Brussels who are running the show like their own personal fiefdom. It cannot last without serious reform.

To target your ire at the people who have been left behind, the people who have nothing, is bizarre.
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