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Brexit

IP is the place for boisterous political discussion, but please remember, the Rules still apply, especially with regards to Personal Attacks. These and other inappropriate posts will be removed without notification.

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Forum rules
IP is the place for boisterous political discussion, but please remember, the Rules still apply, especially with regards to Personal Attacks. These and other inappropriate posts will be removed without notification.

Re: Brexit

Postby GuyInTaiwan » 21 Jul 2016, 17:17

BrentGolf wrote:
GuyInTaiwan wrote:Brentgolf: Sure. I have chosen to live in a foreign country also. That was my choice. Some people don't want change forced upon them. Maybe that's unrealistic of them, maybe it's not. We are seeing this all over the world though, that a fairly large number of people in many countries are resisting this. Culture is a genuine thing for them, probably in a way that it's not for a whole lot of other people. My point is simply that for some people, culture > economics.



The fact that there are large numbers of people resisting globalization is why things like Brexit even happen. I'm all for democracy. If the majority votes to leave, and the reason they are voting that way is because they are trying to preserve their culture then that's what should happen. Majority wins.

My point isn't with what happened though, my point is what with ought to happen. And call me crazy, but I believe that since the economy is pretty much responsible for every asect of peoples lives including the culture they care so much about, it seems ignorant to not put economic arguments at least in the mix when discussing such things. Doesn't always have to be the primary concern, but certainly on the top 3 list of every major decision would be wise. When I hear people say shit like they don't give a flying fuck about economics, it just makes me cringe at how ignorant that is. Economics is a major reason why culture and social structures are stressed in certain countries in the first place. i


It's like saying I don't give a flying fuck about my heart, lungs and central nervous system, I simply care about my health and well being. :eek:


Maybe you're right, but that's democracy. If having an intelligent, informed electorate with intelligent, informed, sincere politicians were a basic requirement for a vote then we'd be looking at about half a dozen people voting on any particular issue.
And you coming in to scold us all like some kind of sour-puss kindie assistant who favors olive cardigans and lemon drinks without sugar. -- Muzha Man

One sometimes gets the impression that the mere words "Socialism" and "Communism" draw towards them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac, Quaker, "Nature Cure" quack, pacifist, and feminist in England. -- George Orwell
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Re: Brexit

Postby tommy525 » 21 Jul 2016, 20:57

Best bud in Engerland had this to say : (didn't get his permission to post his position, but I guess I can accept any arguments on his behalf)

"We were in favour of Brexit and think its time we took back some of our own responsibilities, rather than let nameless and faceless bureaucrats run our country and decide our rules. I am all in favour of immigration but logic dictates you cant have a system where 500 mil can come in if they want and you cant stop them. How on earth do you plan anything on that basis. For example it may take say 2 years to build a hospital but 50000 people could come in in a matter of days. It defies any kind of sense.
Take the minimum wage which is about $14 per hour in the UK. Its half that in Poland and a quarter in Bulgaria. So all the bright people come to the UK, France , Germany and leave in their own country those of lesser ability. So what chance do the people in Bulgaria have, for example, if all their bright people are in the richer countries. The rich get bigger and richer at the expense of the poorer. If it was a short term goal of the EU to make the minimum wage the same in every EU country then that would make sense. So much for a common (single) market.
Instead they concentrate in bankrupting Greece who owe 3 times their GDP in debt, and print money ( ie quantative easing) to bail out France , Italy, Spain and Portugal who all currently have crappy economies which would not allow them to join the EU if they weren't members already.
The question to which nearly everyone in the UK would answer "NO" to is this. If we weren't a member already would we join ???

The current crass hypocrisy of the Scottish nationalists in Scotland is two fold as they are monotonously repetitive about both remaining in the EU and being independent.
IF they had got their way when they had their independence referendum and voted to leave the UK the rules of the EU would have meant they couldn't join it. The other illogical argument is regarding Britain's nuclear deterrent. They voted en masse against renewing it saying they favoured conventional weapons( but lost). However , if they became independent they say they would rely on NATO. Unfortunately for their argument , it is a condition of NATO that they have to agree to be under the nuclear umbrella of the USA who mainly fund NATO.

We have new female prime minister, a wise choice, but not my first until Michael Gove stabbed Boris Johnson in the leadership battle.

The party in opposition , the Labour party, are in a real mess. In simple terms supporters of the party paid £3 to become a member and then voted for a leader someone who opposed almost every policy his party proposed when they were in government. After 10 months nearly all the 75 people he chose to help him run their parliamentary party have since resigned and he now cannot fill enough of the shadow posts. Shadow post are those who mirror the ruling government ones.So we have a Chancellor and a shadow Chancellor. A transport minister and a shadow transport minister, and so on. So now they are having a very divisive leadership battle which will last until late September, with this guy , Jeremy Corbyn, as one of the two candidates.

Politics are again interesting this side of the pond.

You however also have an "interesting" choice, Clinton or Trump. Good luck!!!

On both sides of the pond , as we say, you couldn't make it up.


PS. It is beyond my understanding why politicians here say that we should look farther than Europe and consider the whole world as having potential , on the basis that "Trade Deals" (the current mantra of politicians) , in reality Tariff and Quota agreements, are the driving force for business. The world has always been a market and generally its the politicians who don't understand
and screw it up. Its the business community who trades, gives opportunities for people and ideas and makes profits to fund it all, not governments.
Hope this cured your insomnia."

++++

I guess an United States of Europe was/is a bad idea.
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Re: Brexit

Postby headhonchoII » 23 Jul 2016, 18:43

It seems the EU could easily outlast the UK. It's not like three people run the EU you know.
If another country somehow votes to leave then it's a trend. Otherwise I'll put it down to the fact that a lot of British were never fully enthusiastic about the idea of being a member of the EU in the first place. :cactus:
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Re: Brexit

Postby headhonchoII » 23 Jul 2016, 20:28

@tommy

Some interesting insight from your buddy there.

I would agree with some of his statements such as they way EU (Germany-UK didn't even get involved from what I can see) handled things was pretty crappy. Greece should never have been in the euro zone in the first place and we should have more solidarity for them.

I will say it's pretty funny a Brit criticizing unelected bureaucrats from a country famous for its faceless mandarins and regulations. Also head of government is unelected and heritage and second house is also partly heridetary and certainly not democratic and reeks of classism!

There's also not just one type of Scottish nationalist just as much as there was one reason to vote for brexit. To be fair to Scotland they were given a lot of promises to 'stay in the union' and a lot of that is out the window now.

Also telling that he didn't mention anything about Northern Ireland which is in a real fix if and when UK exits the EU.

As for businesspeople doing a better job of running the economy..really..Wall Street financial crisis 2008 anybody? its down to the individual more than anything.

The minimum wage is 14 usd in UK, it is higher than Eastern Europe but it's NOT the highest
Minimum wage in Europe.
There is a real possibility Brits will emigrate to other more prosperous parts of Europe
In future especially if pound or economy is shaky over medium term. Those people working in the car plants in Sunderland or the steel plants in Wales..they will have to move if they want to maintain their quality of life as social welfare is really crap in the UK (contrary to what the tabloids say...).
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Re: Brexit

Postby headhonchoII » 24 Jul 2016, 09:06

Actually these are the real numbers.
https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates

The minimum wage in UK is in fact only 9 usd/hour and around 7 usd/hour or less for those under 24, hardly a goldmine is it?
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Re: Brexit

Postby OrangeOrganics » 25 Jul 2016, 13:47

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... even-years

As I said, cooler heads will prevail and a sensible agreement will arise.
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Re: Brexit

Postby headhonchoII » 25 Jul 2016, 16:11

I don't really get it. The UK has an emergency break on immigration for seven years but then it expires so it must leave the single market at that time? What's the end goal? Exiting the single market?
Still quite an unstable situation which will decimate investment.
Also why should UK get a special deal like this if they already left the EU?
There's also plenty of industries and cities in Europe who are rubbing their hands at the prospect of UK getting expelled from the single market.
Don't think using current EU residents in UK to blackmail
Other countries will go down well, borderline xenophobic actually. People who are in the UK already from EU should
Be let stay No questions asked not used as hostages.


Ah it seems euroskeptic Tories to the rescue...
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1495103/e ... exit-deal/
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Re: Brexit

Postby OrangeOrganics » 25 Jul 2016, 17:13

headhonchoII wrote:I don't really get it. The UK has an emergency break on immigration for seven years but then it expires so it must leave the single market at that time? What's the end goal? Exiting the single market?
Still quite an unstable situation which will decimate investment.
Also why should UK get a special deal like this if they already left the EU?
There's also plenty of industries and cities in Europe who are rubbing their hands at the prospect of UK getting expelled from the single market.
Don't think using current EU residents in UK to blackmail
Other countries will go down well, borderline xenophobic actually. People who are in the UK already from EU should
Be let stay No questions asked not used as hostages.


Ah it seems euroskeptic Tories to the rescue...
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1495103/e ... exit-deal/


Guess the goal is a deal that suits the EU and Britain, like should have been made in February. The best situation so that everyone can maintain prosperity and work together better in the future. After all these terrorist attacks over the last month, see the free movement of people becoming less popular. If there is reform, I can see UK rejoining the EU, especially if Merkel and Hollande are gone.

Hollande doesnt want a special deal for UK, and he is one of the most unpopular politicians in Europe.
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Re: Brexit

Postby OrangeOrganics » 25 Jul 2016, 17:16

About cities rubbing their hands together at the chance of gaining UK industry, well you are talking about finance. Bankers dont want to live in Luxembourg.

After the wally club of Juncker, Tusk (named after the mediocre Fleetwood Mac album) and pals have had their fun, and another 10,000 Euro meal on the expenses account, the real business will happen. There is no way that German car companies will let the UK be pushed out of the single market
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Re: Brexit

Postby headhonchoII » 25 Jul 2016, 19:33

Bankers don't want to live in Luxembourg. Right-e-o old chap.

Better hope London can keep its passport otherwise tax revenue will sink like a stone.
http://qz.com/727965/londons-total-domi ... y-charted/

A recent report by the Centre for Cities ran the numbers and found that London generated as much tax as the next 37 biggest British cities combined, or around 30% of the country’s total take of “economy taxes” (derived from incomes, spending, investments, property, and the like). In the latest fiscal year, London produced nine times as much tax as the next-highest city, Manchester
.

It's not only finance, loads of European service providers are going to move their regional operations overseas.

It's pretty arrogant to think German manufacturers are going to dictate the rules to France or Poland..don't think so!'!!!

Don't forget you have the biggest Wally of them all, good old BJ, as your foreign minister. They don't see a charmer, they see an out and out opportunistic liar.
What a pathetic choice to negotiate with the EU.
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